Discussion Closed This discussion was created more than 6 months ago and has been closed. To start a new discussion with a link back to this one, click here.

Modelling Ferromagnetic Materials

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Hello,

I'm a just a recent user of COMSOL and still trying to get my head around some of its features, but learning slowly but surely. I have been trying to model induction heating of ferromagnetic materials such as low carbon steel to temperatures beyond 700 degrees celsius, so above the curie temperature point. I can set up property functions for the materials I am heating up, fairly easily but the one property I have not been able to set up a function for is magnetic permeability, which I know definitely changes with temperature and changes significantly as the material approaches the curie point.

I am curious to know, if anyone else has encountered this problem and found or knows of a reliable way to model changing permeability for materials being heated beyond curie.

Any help or guidance would be most appreciated


11 Replies Last Post 11 déc. 2019, 11:44 UTC−5
Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 7 déc. 2019, 03:38 UTC−5

Anthony,

instead of using a number in the material property or in the user setting in Ampere's law you can use a function of T. E.g. something like mur(T) = mu_ref*exp(-(T - 273.12)). This would be a function that provides the value mu_ref at 0 °C and falls exponentially to zero for high temperature. In case you have tabulated data define an interpolation function.

Cheers Edgar

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
Anthony, instead of using a number in the material property or in the user setting in Ampere's law you can use a function of T. E.g. something like mur(T) = mu_ref*exp(-(T - 273.12)). This would be a function that provides the value mu_ref at 0 °C and falls exponentially to zero for high temperature. In case you have tabulated data define an interpolation function. Cheers Edgar

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 9 déc. 2019, 03:14 UTC−5

Hello Edgar,

Thank you replying to my question and giving some pointers in COMSOL, it is most appreciated. It take it for mu_ref, it would be called under parameters and given a value of like 1, would the Temperature variable raised to the exponenet also need to be called under parameters ?

Kind Regards,

Anthony Crawford

Hello Edgar, Thank you replying to my question and giving some pointers in COMSOL, it is most appreciated. It take it for mu_ref, it would be called under parameters and given a value of like 1, would the Temperature variable raised to the exponenet also need to be called under parameters ? Kind Regards, Anthony Crawford

Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 9 déc. 2019, 04:14 UTC−5

Hi Anthony,

no, T is the dependent variable in your Heat Transfer physics. It is already declared in the model and you can use it in expressions throughout the model.

Cheers Edgar

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
Hi Anthony, no, T is the dependent variable in your Heat Transfer physics. It is already declared in the model and you can use it in expressions throughout the model. Cheers Edgar

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 10 déc. 2019, 04:08 UTC−5

I've called the function under variables and mu_ref under parameters. The model runs, but when I plot the temperature data against time, it just shows a temperature of just above 20 degrees, whiltst the 3D temeprature revolution is showing that the object is heated to over 1000 degrees. Have I set up the function correctly ?

Kind Regards,

Anthony Crawford

I've called the function under variables and mu_ref under parameters. The model runs, but when I plot the temperature data against time, it just shows a temperature of just above 20 degrees, whiltst the 3D temeprature revolution is showing that the object is heated to over 1000 degrees. Have I set up the function correctly ? Kind Regards, Anthony Crawford


Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 10 déc. 2019, 15:04 UTC−5

I didn't find the definition of the perm()-function. I think you can use the variable mur_steel, it seems to be set up properly.

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
I didn't find the definition of the perm()-function. I think you can use the variable mur_steel, it seems to be set up properly.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 11 déc. 2019, 03:13 UTC−5

The variable mur_steel is the function, I have set up and have been using, with the value of mu_ref being set to 1 under parameters. Where else could I set up and call this function besides under variables ?

The variable mur_steel is the function, I have set up and have been using, with the value of mu_ref being set to 1 under parameters. Where else could I set up and call this function besides under variables ?

Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 11 déc. 2019, 04:33 UTC−5

mur_steel is set up as a variable, not a function. You can use mur_steel in all entities you defined it in and in any expression. You may also set it up globally if no spatial dependencies are needed. Functions are defined in a more generic way and you call them in the form f(something), where the function definition uses a generic independent variable, e.g. x. In the model x can be replaced by anything. I recommend to test things like this in very simple examples that solve in a few seconds to gain a better understanding of it, before you spend much time with it in the complex model.

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
mur_steel is set up as a variable, not a function. You can use mur_steel in all entities you defined it in and in any expression. You may also set it up globally if no spatial dependencies are needed. Functions are defined in a more generic way and you call them in the form f(something), where the function definition uses a generic independent variable, e.g. x. In the model x can be replaced by anything. I recommend to test things like this in very simple examples that solve in a few seconds to gain a better understanding of it, before you spend much time with it in the complex model.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 11 déc. 2019, 04:44 UTC−5

In my case, how would I set it up as a function then ?

In my case, how would I set it up as a function then ?

Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 11 déc. 2019, 04:57 UTC−5

Look in Definitions -> Functions either in global definitions or in the component definitions.

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
Look in Definitions -> Functions either in global definitions or in the component definitions.

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 11 déc. 2019, 05:13 UTC−5

Unsure what kind of function it would be as, I don't have tabulated data, so that rules out interpolation and piecewise, leaving only step and analytic

Unsure what kind of function it would be as, I don't have tabulated data, so that rules out interpolation and piecewise, leaving only step and analytic

Edgar J. Kaiser Certified Consultant

Please login with a confirmed email address before reporting spam

Posted: 5 years ago 11 déc. 2019, 11:44 UTC−5

Well, of course you need to know what the temperature dependance of µr in your material is. This may be available from the material manufacturer or from literature sources. In many cases material data like this is not available and you need to measure it by yourself or a suitable service provider.

-------------------
Edgar J. Kaiser
emPhys Physical Technology
www.emphys.com
Well, of course you need to know what the temperature dependance of µr in your material is. This may be available from the material manufacturer or from literature sources. In many cases material data like this is not available and you need to measure it by yourself or a suitable service provider.

Note that while COMSOL employees may participate in the discussion forum, COMSOL® software users who are on-subscription should submit their questions via the Support Center for a more comprehensive response from the Technical Support team.